Why You Keep Going Back to Old Habits and How to Make Change Finally Stick - 293
What if the reason you keep going back to old habits has nothing to do with willpower and everything to do with how your brain is wired?
We often think transformation starts with motivation. We get excited, commit to a plan, and promise ourselves that this time will be different. But motivation eventually fades. And when change starts to feel uncomfortable, our brains naturally pull us back toward what feels familiar, even when those familiar habits aren't serving us.
In this episode, I’m joined by my head coach, longtime friend, and someone who knows this work better than almost anyone: Deb Van Dusen.
Deb and I go way back. We were childhood friends who lost touch, then reconnected years later. She initially came to me looking for a body transformation. Today, Deb trains our coaches, develops our curriculum, and has spent nearly eight years studying behavior, change, women's health, and what helps transformation stick.
We also dive into one of my favorite metaphors for transformation: butterfly soup. When a caterpillar enters its chrysalis, it essentially dissolves into a soup before becoming something completely new. To become a butterfly, the caterpillar has to let go of what it was.
Conclusion:
The butterfly doesn't become a butterfly by staying comfortable. Neither do we. Your crown has been there all along. But sometimes you have to be willing to get messy, question what you've believed, let go of the identity you've outgrown, and discover the woman underneath it all.
In This Episode:
00:00 Introduction
05:37 Deb’s journey from weight loss to life transformation
12:28 When losing the weight doesn’t change how you feel
16:29 Why we return to what feels comfortable
18:57 The “rackets” keeping you stuck
22:31 Metacognition: start thinking about your thinking
23:14 What is “butterfly soup”?
29:51 No guilt, just data: choose curiosity over judgment
Recommended Books:
Atomic Habits by James Clear - https://jamesclear.com/atomic-habits
The Consistency Code by Courtney Townley - https://graceandgrit.com/book/the-consistency-code/
Don't Believe Everything You Think by Joseph Nguyen - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09WPP7R6S?
What to Say When You Talk to Yourself by Shad Helmstetter - https://www.amazon.com/dp/0671708821?
Join the BS Club:
https://www.disruptivenutrition.com/bsclub
Pre-Order Carrie’s Book, From Corset to Crown!
Get your copy of "From Corset to Crown" and a ton of awesome bonuses to make the learning really stick at: https://www.carrielupoli.com/corsettocrown
Carrie’s From Corset to Crown Live Event in Nashville on October 2-4, 2026:
The ultimate girls' trip is on! Get your tickets here (special group rate for 2 or more!) https://www.disruptivenutrition.com/liveevent2026
Listen to This Episode on Your Favorite Podcast Channel:
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Transcript:
[00:00:00] Deb Van Dusen: What actually happens in the chrysalis, the caterpillar itself dissolves into a soup, and the only thing that is left are these small particles that are then going to turn into the actual butterfly. They've been there all the time. When the caterpillar goes into that chrysalis, it has no idea what's going to happen, and I don't think it would volunteer to go in if it knew what was going to happen to it.
[00:00:25] Deb Van Dusen: When we go through change, we get into that soup. We get messy, and we have to get messy.
[00:00:32] Carrie Lupoli: So hey there, Crown Straighteners. Whatever is tightening your corset today, welcome. You are in the right place. So here's something nobody tells you when you start trying to change. Motivation, that was never the hard part.
[00:00:44] Carrie Lupoli: You can want it really badly. You can be all in on day one. But at some point, the motivation is going to wean off, and things are gonna start to feel uncomfortable, and your brain, which is wired for comfort, will quietly start pulling you back towards the habits that you [00:01:00] already know, even the ones that aren't serving you.
[00:01:03] Carrie Lupoli: It's not actually a willpower problem. That's our biology, and it's the real reason why so many women can follow a plan perfectly and then still end up back where they started. My guest today has spent almost eight years studying exactly why that happens, first by living it herself through a divorce and a decade-long cycle of, like, losing the same 10 pounds, gaining it back again, losing it again, and then through coaching thousands of women through the same wall.
[00:01:27] Carrie Lupoli: Today, she's breaking down what actually has to happen in your brain and your self-talk before change can stick. But here's what's crazy, is that my guest is someone that I know very, very well, and I cannot believe I've never interviewed her on my podcast before. She has been my head coach in my private practice for almost eight years.
[00:01:48] Carrie Lupoli: Deb Van Dusen, I know her as Debbie. We go back even further. We were childhood friends who lost touch and then reconnected years later, right when Deb needed it the most. She came to me [00:02:00] first for her body transformation, but what she actually got was an entire life transformation. She is now one of the sharpest voices I know on why change is so hard to sustain.
[00:02:11] Carrie Lupoli: She actually trains our entire coaching team and writes our curriculum on exactly this stuff. So Deb, welcome. I am so glad we are finally doing this.
[00:02:26] Carrie Lupoli: Well, hey there, Crown Straighteners. Welcome to another episode, and this one is, like, wild to me. So wild, because Deb Van Dusen, who is my head coach for my private practice, she and I have done, I mean, countless numbers of trainings together. She's actually stepped in on my podcast before. We've done podcast episodes together.
[00:02:49] Carrie Lupoli: But I've never actually interviewed her. Like, her story is wild, it is impressive, and she is so articulate about the [00:03:00] whole journey of going from corset to crown that I was like, "Oh my gosh, how have I never interviewed you on my podcast before?" So welcome, my friend Deb. Thanks. I'm excited to be here. I mean, we go way back.
[00:03:13] Carrie Lupoli: Yes. Uh, like Deb and I, this is what's so fun about life in general. Deb and I were childhood friends. We lived in the same neighborhood. When we were little, we used to... I just remember playing in the yard, playing at your house, you playing at my house. Mm-hmm. And then life happened and we just like, you know, moved in different directions literally.
[00:03:35] Carrie Lupoli: And thanks to Facebook- I know,
[00:03:37] Deb Van Dusen: right? ... you
[00:03:38] Carrie Lupoli: and I kinda stayed connected. And, uh, years, decades later is when you actually reached out to me because of the place you were in with your own health. And we'll get into all that. But what's so wild, not only that I haven't interviewed you on, on my podcast and you've been with me in my team for years and years and years- Yeah
[00:03:58] Carrie Lupoli: you are my head coach, you [00:04:00] literally have more certifications than I do when it comes to health and wellness, and you are just such an example of a full and total transformation. I talk all the time about going from a butterfly... No, I'm sorry, a caterpillar to a butterfly, and that transformation.
[00:04:17] Deb Van Dusen: Yep.
[00:04:17] Carrie Lupoli: And that is you.
[00:04:18] Carrie Lupoli: Like, to know where you were when you first started working with me- Yeah ... to being the one in charge. Yep. Let's be honest, you are the one in charge of like the whole, my whole private practice. I just am so enthralled by your story, so we're gonna dig into it today. But isn't it crazy how, like how different your life is than it was 10 years ago?
[00:04:39] Deb Van Dusen: Oh my gosh. Like, I'm in a completely different place, and I even think about, and I had said this to, um, our membership, that the person that you see here sitting in front of you, who does coaching calls with you, who's gonna be sharing the stage with you in Nashville, I would not have been able to do that 10 years ago.
[00:04:57] Deb Van Dusen: And it truly has been because [00:05:00] I... You know, everybody gets into this thinking that it's going to be a body transformation. I'm gonna lose weight. That literally scratches the surface of the actual transformation that happens.
[00:05:13] Carrie Lupoli: Well, and I think it's part of the reason why w- women have been struggling for so long, because they're looking for the weight loss when that's not actually the issue.
[00:05:23] Carrie Lupoli: Yes. So let's go back. I, I mean, how many years have we been working together? Eight, seven?
[00:05:29] Deb Van Dusen: Almost eight years. Yeah.
[00:05:30] Carrie Lupoli: Jeesh.
[00:05:31] Deb Van Dusen: Yeah.
[00:05:32] Carrie Lupoli: Jeesh Luis. Yeah. Okay, so let's go back like eight- Yeah ... and a half years ago. Okay.
[00:05:36] Deb Van Dusen: Yep.
[00:05:36] Carrie Lupoli: And I think you started by doing like one of my challenges. I did. One of my seminars that I did, like a free seminar.
[00:05:43] Deb Van Dusen: Yeah, it was a birthday challenge.
[00:05:45] Carrie Lupoli: Oh, I w- it was a birthday. I was in, was I 40? No. Yeah, I was just in my early 40s then, right?
[00:05:50] Deb Van Dusen: Yeah.
[00:05:50] Carrie Lupoli: I love to say that you're a year older than me.
[00:05:52] Deb Van Dusen: Yes. Yes.
[00:05:54] Carrie Lupoli: One year
[00:05:54] Deb Van Dusen: I am.
[00:05:55] Carrie Lupoli: Okay, so tell us about where you were in your [00:06:00] life eight and a half years ago that prompted you to say, "Oh, I'm gonna do this challenge of Carrie's, the Seminar of Carrie's."
[00:06:06] Deb Van Dusen: So I, at the time, had just gone through, not too far in the past, a divorce, and so any time you go through that sort of what I like to call a life d- like, it's a life disruption, um-
[00:06:20] Carrie Lupoli: Yeah. I mean, I talk about it in my book, right? Yeah. A disruptive event- Yeah ... and how it can reinvent us, yeah.
[00:06:24] Deb Van Dusen: Yeah. And I was at a very, very low place just in self-esteem in like, because you think that something is going to be your life, and it is not what, you know, what was intended.
[00:06:39] Deb Van Dusen: And I, I know now why that happened and this path that I'm on, and I never would've been on this path had it not been for that disruptive event. But when you're in it, you can't necessarily see out of the fog, and that's truly what I feel like I was in. I was like, going through the motions. I was doing the best that I could because I had a young child.
[00:06:59] Deb Van Dusen: Doing the best that [00:07:00] I could. I was living on my own for the first time in my adult life because I, I had lived with roommates, and then I lived with, you know, my, my now ex-husband. And so I was like, "Oh my gosh, I have to like, manage this whole household on my own." But I got to a point where I was like, "Okay, I would like to do something for me."
[00:07:18] Deb Van Dusen: But it really, truly was more focused on the weight loss piece because I had been, you know, from the time I had gone to college because of course, like most people, I gained the freshman 15. I was an athlete in co- in high school, so I never had to really think about what I ate. But then when you stop playing sports and all of a sudden you are in an environment where there's maybe not the greatest, you know, food choices, I had gained weight.
[00:07:44] Deb Van Dusen: And then I went on this roller coaster, and it was like the same 10 pounds, gaining, losing, gaining, losing. I mean, I've done lots and lots of things, but I knew that it wasn't something that was sustainable because I always came back to that same [00:08:00] spot. And then I saw you. You guys were living in the Midwest at the time, and there was a storm.
[00:08:06] Deb Van Dusen: And you know, you had gone live. You were, um, out helping Peter with trees, or I don't
[00:08:11] Carrie Lupoli: know what was
[00:08:11] Deb Van Dusen: happening.
[00:08:12] Carrie Lupoli: I don't think I even know this story. Yeah. I don't think you've ever told me this.
[00:08:15] Deb Van Dusen: Um, and you came in and you were like, looking at, you're like, "I need to eat now, so let's look at what I have," and you had pulled a bunch of stuff out, and you were talking about like, "Here's the protein, here's the fat, here's the carb."
[00:08:25] Deb Van Dusen: And I was like, "This kinda makes sense." And I was just intrigued by it because, you know, you looked amazing, and again, I was thinking more about like, the physical piece of it. So if we talk about corset, I still had mine on. It was on for a while. But- That's what I was like, "Okay, let, I've done everything else.
[00:08:47] Deb Van Dusen: Why not try this?" And I did the five-day seminar, and I loved it. I was like, "Oh my gosh, this is like something I can attach to." 'Cause I am like a very logical, [00:09:00] problem-solving type thinker, and so this to me made sense
[00:09:04] Carrie Lupoli: And so, I mean, you were-- It was so interesting, so I didn't know that story. It's so funny, because I do remember that storm, actually.
[00:09:11] Carrie Lupoli: We just got a Facebook memory of me s- uh, cutting wood, which is- Oh, yeah ... crazy sidebar- I remember that. Yeah ... from that storm, so it's funny that you just brought that up. But I remember when you, when you signed up, I was like, "Oh, Debbie, Debbie's here." And you go by Deb now, but I knew you as Debbie.
[00:09:25] Deb Van Dusen: Yep.
[00:09:25] Carrie Lupoli: And so I still jump into the Debbie thing.
[00:09:27] Carrie Lupoli: Sometimes when I, I'm talking to my mom, I'm like, "Debbie's here." So you jumped in, and then you were, like, kinda like I was when I first really learned and understood how to balance my blood sugar. I was, like, all in. And we've evolved so much. The company's evolved so much since then. But I remember you recorded yourself d- using the little printouts that I had for people.
[00:09:50] Carrie Lupoli: Mm-hmm. And you were, like, making your PFC meals, and you recorded yourself. And, and I feel like that recording was in our program for for- It was ... years and [00:10:00] years and years. And I, and I just thought, "Debbie's getting it." Like, she understands this really well. At what point were you like, "I know I can do this forever"?
[00:10:09] Carrie Lupoli: Like, what was happening where you were like, "This is not like anything else I've ever done before"?
[00:10:13] Deb Van Dusen: Think it was one of those things where because it made sense to me and because there was a system behind it. Like, I know that there are some people who meal planning and prepping is, like, the bane of their existence.
[00:10:25] Deb Van Dusen: For me, I was like, "This is something I can do." Now, Kerry will make fun of me because I used to, like, spend a Sunday afternoon prepping all my food for the week. I s- I have simplified since then. We all evolve. But it made sense to me, so I was like, "Okay, if I prep all of this, and then I make dinners for myself and my son throughout the week, like, I-- this makes sense."
[00:10:46] Deb Van Dusen: And then it was just a matter of doing it, right? And to me, it, it was one of those things where I, because it was logical, because it was a system, because it was like I was [00:11:00] eating every three hours, it's like, "Okay, I can do this." Now, I did-- Because I'm a teacher, I had to sort of figure out, like, how am I gonna do this while I have kids in front of me?
[00:11:09] Deb Van Dusen: And, you know, that's where we-- I had-- we troubleshot and thought about it a, a couple of different options. But that's the beauty of this. There were troubleshooting options. There were ways to figure things out because, as you say, everything is figureoutable. We were able to figure out any, uh, roadblock that I came into, and so to me, it was like I've never been able to figure that out before.
[00:11:32] Deb Van Dusen: You were either on or you were off. And here, you know, one of the things that I remember you saying is, like, you always have another opportunity in three hours. But I am also a rule follower, and so I was following the rules. I was doing the things that I needed to do. Now, it took me a little bit of time to, like, totally understand the difference between serving your body and serving your soul and what that actually meant, and really thinking about, like, okay, we do need those times.
[00:11:57] Deb Van Dusen: You know, there's that, there are mindset shifts, but [00:12:00] It's part of that sa- that change process, but you have to be willing to engage in the change process, and you have to be able to look at and recognize habits that you have. And that's the piece where you're, like, truly putting the mirror up in front and saying, "What is it?"
[00:12:19] Deb Van Dusen: Like, I've changed this piece, I've gotten these results, but at the same point in time, like I had said, and I think I only shared this recently, I had gotten to the spot where I wanted to be, right? 'Cause everybody has, like- Physically ... that goal. Physically. Physically, right?
[00:12:35] Carrie Lupoli: Of course. Yeah.
[00:12:36] Deb Van Dusen: I still hadn't changed up here.
[00:12:37] Deb Van Dusen: I still... Like, I figured, "Oh, when I get to X, I will be Y." My confidence hadn't changed. My self-worth hadn't changed. The way I thought about myself or talked to myself hadn't changed. The only thing that had changed was the physical piece, and then it was sort of like, okay, there's more here. There's more work to be done.
[00:12:57] Deb Van Dusen: But I was in the place where I was ready to do that [00:13:00] work. Well, howdy. Let's go on a trip together, shall we? How about Nashville, Tennessee?
[00:13:06] Carrie Lupoli: October 2nd through the 4th, I am bringing my concept, my approach, and my heart to you in Nashville with my live event, From Corset to Crown. It's gonna be three days of being in person with all sorts of amazing speakers, but here's what's really gonna happen.
[00:13:21] Carrie Lupoli: Friday, you're gonna show up wearing a corset. We all will, and that's right where you're supposed to be, because we are gonna start to recognize all the things that are just keeping us stuck. We're gonna name them. We're gonna sign a peace treaty with ourselves, and then on Saturday I am going to disrupt everything you've been told about weight loss, confidence, and self-worth in a room full of women doing the same hard, honest, amazing work.
[00:13:41] Carrie Lupoli: I'm gonna teach you the last nutritional advice you will ever need. I'm going to teach you the tools I use with my clients, and the things that have worked with tens of thousands of women. And then on Sunday, we're gonna get real, and dig in, and bring it all together with true centeredness, self-love, empowerment.
[00:13:59] Carrie Lupoli: I cannot [00:14:00] wait for you not just to be inspired, but to learn so much information, and leave with a complete and total transformation. So for a limited time, I am offering our general admission tickets for $50 off. We've already sold out of platinum and VIP, but every single person in that room, I'm going to hug, I'm going to greet.
[00:14:16] Carrie Lupoli: It's gonna be incredible. So go get your ticket
[00:14:19] Deb Van Dusen: now. I can't wait to see you in Nashville.
[00:14:24] Carrie Lupoli: Well, it's so, it's so interesting because I always say when our clients come with, to us now in our, in my private practice, Disruptive Nutrition, it's like you and I have evolved so much in our teaching because when you first did it, it really was more about this is how you feel your body. It was less around the mindset, but the more I worked with women, and I talk about this in my book too, the more I realize the, the, the plan doesn't matter, the approach doesn't matter if we're not actually getting to our belief systems and understanding behavioral science.
[00:14:56] Carrie Lupoli: And so when you got kind of stuck in that place, it [00:15:00] was like it's becomes fight or flight. I think you were like, "I'm gonna figure this out."
[00:15:03] Deb Van Dusen: Yeah.
[00:15:03] Carrie Lupoli: And so together you and I continued to evolve the approach, uh, which we still do-
[00:15:09] Deb Van Dusen: Yes ...
[00:15:09] Carrie Lupoli: every single year. Yep. We continue to go deeper and deeper into this work, which I love for our clients as, as, as, as the years go on, we just get better and better.
[00:15:19] Deb Van Dusen: Yeah. But
[00:15:20] Carrie Lupoli: change is hard. Mm-hmm. So no matter what, because we are wired in a certain way, and what I love about you, Deb, is not only did you end up working with me and then for me, and then honestly like we're just partners in ev- like in just every way. But you have dug deeper and deeper and deeper, so you've gotten multiple certifications- Mm-hmm
[00:15:41] Carrie Lupoli: in women's hormones, and you're now a personal trainer. You're a certified Melt instructor. You are a, a certified behavior specialist. I mean, I, I could name five more certifications that you have. You're always like, "I'm doing this one this year. I'm doing this one this year." It's so impressive. You have studied [00:16:00] change at such a deep level, at the same time working with...
[00:16:05] Carrie Lupoli: I mean, you train all of our coaches, you oversee and supervise all of our coaches, and you write much of our curriculum and our coaching protocols for our clients. And so you have had to study change at a very deep level.
[00:16:19] Deb Van Dusen: Yeah.
[00:16:19] Carrie Lupoli: So let's talk a little bit just from your point of view, because your teaching is so powerful.
[00:16:24] Carrie Lupoli: When you do the coaching calls for the clients, I just tune in as a client. It's like- Yes ... wonderful. You have talked so much about why change is hard and how we actually build habits, because it's about rewiring. Like, we come in having a certain belief systems, certain ways of doing things, and people always say, "Yes, I can be coachable.
[00:16:44] Carrie Lupoli: Yes, I can unlearn." But the act of doing it is actually much more complicated and nuanced than just saying, "Yes, I'm willing." So let's get into a little bit of Deb Van Dusen teaching- Okay ... because it's, it's really incredible how [00:17:00] you explain all of this, having not just gone through it- Mm-hmm ... but worked with thousands of women to be able to help them too.
[00:17:06] Deb Van Dusen: And I think that's the piece that truly, like, sets us apart is the fact that we do continue to change and grow. We have both embraced change. Sometimes it's not... I mean, it's, sometimes change can be like, "Okay, this, this wasn't that bad." Like, changing the way that I ate wasn't that bad because I was already eating healthy.
[00:17:30] Deb Van Dusen: It ju- I just had to change a little bit of the ratios. The piece I think that's the hardest for people, and we talk about, you know, like motivation, and motivation is never a strategy. People are motivated, and that's what they think about in the beginning. But when you get to a certain point, all of a sudden Things start to feel uncomfortable.
[00:17:54] Deb Van Dusen: Our brain is wired for comfort. So we might have habits [00:18:00] that are things that we've been doing, actions that we've been taking, ways that we have talked about ourselves for years, and if we're not aware of what those patterns are, what our habits are, the way we talk to ourself, it's we're not going to sort of gain traction.
[00:18:16] Deb Van Dusen: Because when things feel uncomfortable, we're automatically gonna divert back to what our old habits are, because those old habits feel comfortable. Which is why we sometimes have to, like, name what it is that we're feeling. Actually start to sit in those feelings, and that's something that's hard for people.
[00:18:36] Deb Van Dusen: I have had to sit in my discomfort. I hate sitting in discomfort. I like being comfortable. But in order for us to grow, we have to sort of face our fears. We have to face, you know, the things that we have done for the longest time, because they might not necessarily be serving us. You know, we talk to our, our, our clients about [00:19:00] rackets.
[00:19:00] Carrie Lupoli: We all have rackets and excuses. Explain, explain what a racket is for people that don't know.
[00:19:05] Deb Van Dusen: Well, we're not talking about tennis racket or- ... our favorite pickleball racket.
[00:19:08] Carrie Lupoli: My pickleball racket.
[00:19:10] Deb Van Dusen: We're talking about basically narratives that we have in our head that are protecting the habits that are not serving us.
[00:19:20] Deb Van Dusen: So it gives us the excuse to not do something. It's like, "Well, I'm not a..." It could be a, a, a thought that we have about ourselves. "I'm just not an exerciser. I've never been an athletic..." But you don't have to be an athletic person to go strength train, right? That's not what this is about. But those mindsets, that, that existing thought that we have about ourselves, the narratives that we tell ourselves about who we are and what we are and what we're worth, those help us to develop rackets.
[00:19:51] Deb Van Dusen: Those rackets protect our, you know, whatever actions we've been taking. So there's a couple of things that we really sort of need to [00:20:00] take as we're going through the change process. Number one, we have to be in a place where we're ready, because we might not be ready. Right? For a time, I wasn't ready. I followed Carrie, right?
[00:20:13] Deb Van Dusen: I mean, we were friends, but I was following her posts. That seems interesting. Okay, maybe I'll follow the next one. Oh, she went live again. Let me listen to it. I was educating myself. I was thinking about, like, what it was. I was contemplating. And then I decided to take the plunge, right? I decided to do it.
[00:20:31] Deb Van Dusen: But there was something about because I, number one, was getting results, and I was younger at that point in time. And I know that there are so many other components of health now. But you have to be ready, right? I was ready, number one, for the physical change. But then I also knew that something was not sitting right in my mindset, and I really needed to make a change there.
[00:20:56] Deb Van Dusen: And so we did some work around, we [00:21:00] talk a little bit about personality types and things like that, right? Really recognizing our habits, our patterns, why we do what we do, why we think the way that we think. And delving into that. But again, you have to be ready to do that work. You have to be ready to put that mirror
[00:21:16] Carrie Lupoli: up.
[00:21:16] Carrie Lupoli: How do people, like, how do people really know they're ready? And I think that's where it's like people think they're ready.
[00:21:21] Deb Van Dusen: Yes, they do.
[00:21:21] Carrie Lupoli: And then we get clients that are like... 'Cause when a client works with us, we don't have, like, anything on our Disruptive Nutrition website that says, "Here, work with us."
[00:21:29] Carrie Lupoli: Yeah, no. Like, click and buy. Yeah. They have to actually get on a call with us. We have to talk. We have to, like, really decide are we truly ready to learn, unlearn, and be coachable. Mm-hmm. And they have to convince us that they're, that they're ready. And so many women really truly believe that they are. And they hit a wall.
[00:21:46] Deb Van Dusen: Yeah. And it's at that wall where we as coaches start asking the questions, right? Start probing with them, start having them look at, uh, really thinking about, like, what are [00:22:00] your habits? What have you done in the past? What is the dialogue that happens up in your head? Because that dialogue is so important.
[00:22:08] Deb Van Dusen: If you say you can or you say you can't, guess what? You're right either way. So if you have convinced yourself that you can't do something, you won't be able to do it. And
[00:22:18] Carrie Lupoli: if- So it's not like you're ready to make a change. I think it's more like you're ready to analyze-
[00:22:24] Deb Van Dusen: Yeah ...
[00:22:24] Carrie Lupoli: and to be
[00:22:25] Deb Van Dusen: thoughtful.
[00:22:26] Carrie Lupoli: And I wanna say, yeah, I don't wanna say critical- No
[00:22:28] Carrie Lupoli: 'cause that sounds negative, but really thoughtful. Mm-hmm. And that's where you said metacognition, thinking about your thinking. And thinking. Like, are you really ready- Yeah ... to sit in who you are?
[00:22:39] Deb Van Dusen: Yeah.
[00:22:40] Carrie Lupoli: And you don't have to have that figured out, but I love that so much because it's like, "No, I'm really ready to lose 50 pounds."
[00:22:46] Carrie Lupoli: No, are you actually ready to figure out who you are? And when you're figuring out who you are, you gotta sit in a lot of soup, right? We talk about, like, butterfly soup. And- Yeah. L- I love, [00:23:00] love, love this. You did, like, two coaching calls with our- Yeah ... clients on butterfly soup. Yep. And I was like, I saw the name of the coaching call you were planning, and I'm like, "What is butterfly soup?"
[00:23:09] Deb Van Dusen: It's like Am I eating?
[00:23:11] Carrie Lupoli: And I'm like, I don't know. I don't have that recipe. So tell us what butterfly soup is- Not from Portal ... 'cause I love this so freaking much. Um,
[00:23:18] Deb Van Dusen: so caterpillars, right, go through a metamorphosis, just like our clients literally go through their own metamorphosis. They start as a caterpillar.
[00:23:27] Deb Van Dusen: Just like
[00:23:27] Carrie Lupoli: you did, just like I did.
[00:23:29] Deb Van Dusen: Exactly.
[00:23:29] Carrie Lupoli: Like, this is what is so powerful. Yeah.
[00:23:31] Deb Van Dusen: So you start as a caterpillar, right? If anybody's ever read The Hungry Caterpillar, um, munch, munch, munch. You go into a chrysalis. What actually happens in the chrysalis, I don't know if you guys know this, but the caterpillar itself dissolves into a soup, right?
[00:23:47] Deb Van Dusen: And the only thing that is left are these small particles that are then going to turn into the actual butterfly. They've been there all the time. The whole time they were laying dormant in [00:24:00] the caterpillar. And the caterpillar's, like, immune system actually, like, tries to attack it, right? So think about that.
[00:24:06] Deb Van Dusen: When we think about the rackets that come up, when we think about that cycle of self-protection like you talk about in the book, right? These cycles, everything is laying in us. Our crown has been there the whole time, but yet we have let things come in and eat away at our self-worth, our self-confidence, our self-trust, our self-compassion.
[00:24:29] Deb Van Dusen: And when we go into, when the caterpillar goes into that chrysalis, it has no idea what's going to happen. And, and, uh, one of the things I had said to our members was, I don't think it would volunteer to go in if it knew what was going to happen to it. Yes. But we, when we go through change, we actually go through, we get into that soup.
[00:24:49] Deb Van Dusen: We get messy, and we have to get messy. We have to develop a self-awareness about what our habits are. We have to then move the [00:25:00] self-awareness. 'Cause you can be aware, but if you are not truly then thinking about your own thinking, as we talk in education, it's called metacognition, as you had just mentioned.
[00:25:08] Deb Van Dusen: We have to start thinking about analyzing our thought patterns, looking at, why do I say these things to myself? Right? I would never... And if you think about some of the things that we say to ourselves, we would never say that to another human. But yet we think it's okay to talk to ourselves the way that we talk to ourselves.
[00:25:30] Deb Van Dusen: And-
[00:25:30] Carrie Lupoli: So true. And that, you know, when we do, uh, work with women and we have them analyze their own self-love- Yeah ... for example, right? I do this in my free challenges that I run when I do a three-day challenge, and I have women crying like a puddle because they realize how much they haven't liked themselves and haven't showed up for themselves in the midst of, of life.
[00:25:55] Carrie Lupoli: And I think that these tears... And when we talk to women all the time and they're [00:26:00] crying, we often say on the team, "That's actually a good thing." Because I can see now with your soup metaphor, it's like we have to almost get ourselves down to, like, this childlike vulnerability and remember who we were before the corset was put on us, like our five-year-old self.
[00:26:18] Carrie Lupoli: Yeah. What would your five-year-old self tell you was true about you before you started believing all the things that the world told you? And that process can... I, I, I can just see it in our clients where it, it, it almost is like, in some ways, painful to be able to reconcile all of the hurt and the- Mm-hmm
[00:26:40] Carrie Lupoli: the ways that we've treated ourselves, and then You almost like pick-- It's like the Rascal Flatts song when you like get, get on your knees and look up and you stand, and you finally stand up looking up. And I see that in that trajectory of so many of our women. And I, I just love the soup metaphor [00:27:00] because I think, yes, they wanna turn into a butterfly, but they don't realize what actually happens is required to happen.
[00:27:08] Deb Van Dusen: Yeah. '
[00:27:09] Carrie Lupoli: Cause you have to lose your old identity.
[00:27:11] Deb Van Dusen: Yeah. You do. And that identity truly for most people was placed on us, and that's really where the corset came in, because we were told certain things about ourselves that like throughout the years we molded ourselves. Like think about, I, I... You always refer to it in the, the scene from the Titanic where, um, I forget her name.
[00:27:33] Deb Van Dusen: But Kate Winslet's character- Rose. Rose. Rose. Sorry. Come on. Yeah. I know, right? Come on. Rose's mom is like, you know her mom loves her, but what's she doing? She's like pulling the corset tighter. Um, and that's what people do. Even the people with the best of intentions who love us, because of the narratives they had-
[00:27:52] Carrie Lupoli: Yeah
[00:27:52] Deb Van Dusen: they then put those narratives on us, right? And we tighten and tighten and tighten until the identity that our [00:28:00] real five-year-old self had is no longer really visible because of all of the pressures that have been put on us.
[00:28:08] Carrie Lupoli: It's no wonder that the diet world doesn't, quote unquote, "work." I always say like, what's your definition of working?
[00:28:15] Carrie Lupoli: I think we believe that losing weight will give us the peace, the joy, the confidence, when in all reality that comes from the inside. And I think you're a perfect example of how when you lost the weight, you didn't, that didn't just automatically get better. And the same was true for me. It was the actual inside work that had to happen.
[00:28:35] Carrie Lupoli: It was going into the soup. But- Uh, you and I kinda went into it a little blindly. At least now we can help people knowing, "Oh yeah, the soup is coming. It's, it's okay." So how do we-- and I know there's not a single answer for this at all, but when we think about what you're saying here is you have to be ready.
[00:28:55] Carrie Lupoli: What do you have to be ready? You have to be ready to be self-aware. You have to be ready to be honest with yourself. You have to be ready [00:29:00] to actually look at truth, not truthiness, which is where our rackets come from, what seems like truth, like I, I just don't have enough time to work out. Well, if we prioritize what's most important.
[00:29:10] Carrie Lupoli: We just haven't prioritized ourselves. There's a difference between self-care and self-comfort. Self-comfort holds us back- Mm-hmm ... keeps us stuck. Yep. It actually will keep us from progressing. Self-care moves us forward. We've just never been taught this stuff before. So when you're in your 40s, and I, I was in my late 30s when I started this journey.
[00:29:29] Carrie Lupoli: You were in your early 40s. Mm-hmm. And really, this journey of self-awareness, this journey of self-discovery is what it actually takes- Yeah ... 'cause you will show up differently for someone that you like- Yep ... someone that you know, someone that you trust, more than you will for someone that you don't like, don't know, and don't trust.
[00:29:44] Carrie Lupoli: If you could-- I get asked this question all the time when I'm on podcasts, so I'm gonna ask you- Oh ... and just put you on this hot, hot seat for it. All
[00:29:50] Deb Van Dusen: right, I'm on the hot seat, people.
[00:29:51] Carrie Lupoli: If you-- if, if self, building self-awareness is so important, what's the one thing someone can do to really work on building that [00:30:00] self-awareness today?
[00:30:01] Deb Van Dusen: That's a good question. I think it is starting to recognize. Like, that's the first piece, and it might be after the fact. It might be 10 minutes later- Yeah ... where all of a sudden you're like, "Wait, what did I just do?" It's that we have to recognize. Because if we're not recognizing, if we don't recognize, number one, how we respond to people, how we respond to situations, actions that we take.
[00:30:28] Deb Van Dusen: If we're recognizing, "I just had a stressful day," and suddenly there's an empty bag of chips in front of me. Even if you recognize after the fact, it's like, okay, this action is not serving who I want to be, and it's not serving my health for sure. So I think it's that slowly starting to recognize what your patterns are, number one, and how you talk to yourself.
[00:30:54] Carrie Lupoli: Yeah, I love that because I, I think a lot of the times when the bag of, empty bag of chips is there, we [00:31:00] just fill ourselves with self-hatred and guilt- Yeah. Self-blaming ... and shame. Yeah. And a, and a phrase we say all the time is, "No guilt, just data." Right. I, I love the idea of looking at it afterwards, because so often we are just so wired that it's just almost subconscious to be like, we are wired to seek whatever comfort we can- And chips gives us like maybe that moment of comfort, or the glass of wine gives us a moment of comfort, and our brain tags that as, "Oh, that worked."
[00:31:30] Deb Van Dusen: Right.
[00:31:31] Carrie Lupoli: That calmed our nervous system down.
[00:31:33] Deb Van Dusen: Right.
[00:31:33] Carrie Lupoli: But then, of course- Dopamine ... the guilt sets in- Yeah ... because our brain goes back to where it's functioning normally, and then we often feel guilt. So instead of guilt, replace it with awareness or replace it with reflection, replace it with data, and be like, "What was the trigger that got me there first?"
[00:31:50] Carrie Lupoli: Yep. I love that so much. That's great.
[00:31:51] Deb Van Dusen: Replace it with a question. Yeah. Like, you know, what just happened here? Right. Um, and we're not looking at it from a standpoint of judgment. We're looking at it, because you [00:32:00] can't be, as, as other people have talked about, like you can't be curious and judgmental at the same time.
[00:32:04] Deb Van Dusen: So-
[00:32:05] Carrie Lupoli: Oh, uh, that is my favorite thing. I heard that from you first.
[00:32:09] Deb Van Dusen: Oh.
[00:32:09] Carrie Lupoli: You need to say that again because that hits hard, I think, when people really understand that.
[00:32:14] Deb Van Dusen: Actually, Courtney, I think it, Townley is the one that I, like, she had talked about it. Um, the whole idea of you can't be judgmental and curious at the same time.
[00:32:25] Deb Van Dusen: Your brain can't do both of those things. Just like even though we think we can multitask, people, we can't.
[00:32:31] Carrie Lupoli: This
[00:32:31] Deb Van Dusen: is
[00:32:31] Deb Van Dusen: so true. Um, so you can either be judgmental, or you can make a choice to be curious. And when we are approaching things from curiosity, that can shift us away from that whole guilt shame, right?
[00:32:45] Deb Van Dusen: Because- Yes ... and there is a difference between guilt and shame, right? Guilt is like, "I did something bad." Shame is, "I am bad." And many of us have been, have patterns because we are soothing ourselves [00:33:00] from either feeling like we did something bad or someone telling us that we are bad because we don't X, Y, or Z.
[00:33:07] Carrie Lupoli: Yes. That is good. Okay. So that is our n- number one step is to build our self-awareness. Mm-hmm. Even if it's after the fact. Yeah. Get curious versus judgmental. That is such fire, Deb. I love it so much. Now, this is the other last thing I wanna ask you about.
[00:33:23] Deb Van Dusen: Okay.
[00:33:24] Carrie Lupoli: You actually started something recently with our members, and our clients are lifetime members because I always say if this is a lifestyle, then there's no end in sight, and then I'm not gonna just charge you month after month- Yeah
[00:33:35] Carrie Lupoli: to stay with us because eventually you'll quit, and we're not gonna do that around here.
[00:33:40] Deb Van Dusen: Yep.
[00:33:40] Carrie Lupoli: So you are so committed to our members and always working to help them get up leveled. You im- implemented something called Power Hours a few years ago where there's monthly workshops for people that have really have- gone through the transformation and are cultivating this marriage between themselves, and I love that you implemented office hours for our [00:34:00] members so that they have a coach to be able to talk to a couple times a month no matter what.
[00:34:04] Carrie Lupoli: But you also implemented one book, one community. And so every month, because you read like a crazy woman, like you are an, like just a reader, reader, reader, reader. I think every other day you're texting me a new book that you've read, and then I'm like, "I gotta keep up with Deb." So one book, one community.
[00:34:19] Carrie Lupoli: It's a book, it's like an idea of like every month we're kind of at the same time reading a book.
[00:34:25] Deb Van Dusen: Yep.
[00:34:25] Carrie Lupoli: So you have read so many books. If you could think about maybe your top two or three books- Hmm ... that you have felt like have really embodied this message of change, I'd love for you to be able to share that so that people have like a, a text to go after.
[00:34:39] Carrie Lupoli: Other than From Corset to Crown- So that would- ... because we know that book- Okay ... has gotta be number one- Yes ... in your bookshelf. Am I right?
[00:34:47] Deb Van Dusen: It is my number... Wait, I have it right over there. It's on my bookshelf.
[00:34:50] Carrie Lupoli: There you go. Um- Okay. Good, good answer, Deb.
[00:34:52] Deb Van Dusen: Thank you. So yes, that would be my number one, but she asked me to pick two others other than that.
[00:34:56] Deb Van Dusen: So one of the books that I, I just thought was an [00:35:00] amazing way of thinking about habits is James Clear's Atomic Habits. The way he writes it is in a way that anybody c- I mean, there's lots of books about habits about there, and I've fallen asleep reading a number of them. Yeah. His book is engaging, but it's also practical, and you understand, and the examples that he gives.
[00:35:20] Deb Van Dusen: I think he- Yeah,
[00:35:21] Carrie Lupoli: and you know what? I know a lot of people are like, "Oh, I've read Atomic Habits," but you know that they are not implementing Atomic Habits. Mm-hmm. So this is a book that I feel like you gotta get on your shelf- Yeah ... and then you gotta go back and read, and like use it like a reference. Yeah.
[00:35:34] Carrie Lupoli: But also his emails are awesome.
[00:35:36] Deb Van Dusen: Yeah, they are.
[00:35:37] Carrie Lupoli: I mean- Yeah ... awesome. Like, get on his email list because they're super practical. Great quotes, all that.
[00:35:42] Deb Van Dusen: I think my other one, my gosh, I have so many books I love Courtney Townley's The Consistency Code, too. I've
[00:35:49] Carrie Lupoli: seen.
[00:35:49] Deb Van Dusen: Like, I think... And that, again, it's practical.
[00:35:53] Deb Van Dusen: Like, when I read that, I was like, "Yes. Yeah." I mean, y- you know, saying out loud, like, "This is [00:36:00] it. This, this is why this happens." And she also touches upon change as well— Yeah ... and it's im- I, I just think it's, number one, it's well-written, but it's also, like, it's, it's easy and practical. So again— Yeah ... it- but it's a text you have to come back to again and again— Yep
[00:36:16] Deb Van Dusen: just like Atomic Habits.
[00:36:17] Carrie Lupoli: Yeah, I love Courtney, Courtney Townley. I love her book. She's been on our podcast. She was recently on our podcast, keynote speaker at our event in Nashville, and I love that she really digs into identity and self-leadership. Yeah. It works. Like, h- our books are so synergistic, I think.
[00:36:32] Carrie Lupoli: So aligned, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:36:33] Deb Van Dusen: Yeah,
[00:36:33] Deb Van Dusen: yeah.
[00:36:34] Carrie Lupoli: What about, um, the one we were just talking about, about, um... Why can't I remember? About thinking about your thinking?
[00:36:40] Deb Van Dusen: Oh, Don't Believe Everything You Think?
[00:36:41] Carrie Lupoli: Don't Believe Everything You Think.
[00:36:43] Deb Van Dusen: Yeah, and that one's, I mean,
[00:36:44] Deb Van Dusen: that's a short one, too. Like, I remember— Yeah
[00:36:46] Deb Van Dusen: getting to the end of that and being like, "Okay."
[00:36:48] Deb Van Dusen: I also, like, if we're thinking about just thinking, I also love, like, What to Say When You Talk to Yourself.
[00:36:54] Carrie Lupoli: Oh, that was the other one I was thinking about, too. Yeah. That's the one, uh, Dan Miller, another fellow health [00:37:00] pro and an amazing speaker, he told me about that book— Yeah
[00:37:03] Carrie Lupoli: and I got it, and I was like, "Oh my gosh, we have to do this as a book study." So we did this with our members, too.
[00:37:07] Deb Van Dusen: Yeah.
[00:37:08] Carrie Lupoli: Those are some good ones to start with. Yeah. So that's awesome. I love it. I love it. I love it. Deb, I just... You and I, I feel like we're just, like... I love it when w- you live in New Jersey. I live in Connecticut.
[00:37:18] Carrie Lupoli: You come up. We hang out. We talk. But I, I love that we did this because— Yeah ... I don't actually ever interview you.
[00:37:24] Deb Van Dusen: No. No, you don't. It's usually one
[00:37:26] Carrie Lupoli: or the other of us talking. You basically just tell me what to do, and then I do it, 'cause you're kinda like my boss, and that's great. So I like that we, we flipped the tables on this.
[00:37:35] Deb Van Dusen: Yep, there you go.
[00:37:36] Carrie Lupoli: But I am also just really proud of you. I just need to take a minute in front of everybody in our audience and just tell everybody how appreciative I am of you. I don't think there are enough words in the English language for me to express how... I, I could not do this without you. You've just added a whole nother layer of quality, of integrity, of love and support for the women that we work with, but also for me, [00:38:00] because I couldn't do what I, what I do if, if I didn't have you.
[00:38:03] Carrie Lupoli: So I love you so much, and I'm so glad— I love you too ... you were here.
[00:38:06] Deb Van Dusen: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me on. Love you too. Thanks, everybody.
